Migrant Crisis - Bit of a controversial one

[tonyco1]

Well I speak as I find, I love Jim as a holiday friend, but I have a differing opinion, while respecting his.
I find it a touch condescending though, to slate - and say  - that the Mail and Sun are spouting fiction and are wrong in their opinion, as lot's of what they say is true.  Well sorry mate but I do read the Mail, (and the Sun has the largest circulation), so that's a bit of an insult, to the many.
They are no more wrong than the fiction and spin in the Morning Star, the Guardian, the Independent etc, all left-wing rags with low circulation, and opposing views.
It's just opinion and spin for headlines after all, most can see past the spin.
The trouble is if anyone expresses any view right of centre, the baying trots come out and call you racist which is totally wrong on every level.
People are scared to express a view.

I judge a lot by my neibourhood, originally a great place to live, which has changed dramatically for the worse,
and is inundated with every kind of immigrant, from refugee asylum seekers, and EU migrants, and families housed by the council.
The local houses are all rented out bar a few owner-occupiers, and are rented by the room, stuffed with people.
Now I'm not racist or anti-immigrant, but I am realistic. Almost all of my neighbours are immigrants, and some are really great, good friends in fact,
some are really bad, just like anywhere in the UK, but the numbers are now overwhelming in my area.

It's impossible to get a GP appointment, hospitals and the NHS in all forms, is overwhelmed.
Even parking is a major problem now, & crime has risen greatly.
Different groups don't integrate, but keep in their own circles, and look down on the locals like they were second class.
English is heard less and less. There are big queues at the local benefits office, yet there is plenty of employment.

I really don't care if more taxes are coming in - I just see the results.
The results are king, which all the trendy academics conveniently ignore as they throw spin, figures and facts around, and mainly don't have the problems in their areas that I have found where I live.

The Blair administration deceived the people of this country and allowed us to be swamped in many areas, without building up the infrastructure to match.
The bottom line is we just can't cope and when so many of a totally different religious group come in those kind of numbers, it changes the fundamental fabric of the area and indeed the  country.
Don't anyone dare to try and tell me any different, because I see it every day. I  am going to have to move outwards away from Greater London as I no longer want to live like this.
This is now just my opinion:
I am for immigration as we obviously need it, but it must be controlled, on a points system.
Our benefits shouldn't be any better than the rest of Europe, as it's too attractive for those who don't want to work.
I was one who voted for the common market but I never voted for the sly politicians to try and make us the United States of Europe.
So I for one won't care about the scare stories, I know the UK will prosper whatever happens, I know what I will vote for !!

[babs56]

Well done Tony, you have expressed the views of many people brilliantly. I am not racist or anti immigrant either but this government is making people go that way because of there policies regarding immigration. I don't think your neighbourhood is unique its happening all over the country. I am from a small town in Wales and it is very disturbing when you are in your own town and you don`t hear any English or welsh being spoken its all foreigners.

[Jimbo]

The simple fact is that the Daily Mail has by far the worst record in having to withdraw blatantly false stories. Ask J.K.Rowling or George Clooney. It had to apologise for saying that all flights and trains out of Romania and Bulgaria were booked out the day work and residence restrictions were lifted in 2013 when there were loads of seats. It claimed that 75% of our laws were made in Brussels when the real figure, in line with other EU countries is between 8% and 12%, and in 2014 there were 3,000 fewer Bulgarians working in the UK. In 2011 it reported a widely disputed study that claimed that professional women were responsible for a rise in autism as though it were unassailable fact. And on and on.

I understand completely people's anger at the clusters of immigrants in some areas. About half of what's on the shelves in my local shop is Polish. But the vast majority of the Poles here work hard and pay their taxes and NI, and by God we need them to. Our population is aging. In the long run we do not have enough young people to sustain pensions and health care, and migrants working here are generally young. This changing demographic is the underlying reason for longer NHS waiting times, together with under-funding. Actually, a great many Poles prefer to go back to Poland as private patients for significant medical care - about 63% of Poles have private health insurance - far from being a burden to the NHS they're actually subsidising it.

As somebody who regularly sells to EU countries, I can tell you that it's a hell of a lot easier and better than it was before. Before the EU, import/export restrictions made it a nightmare of licences and red tape. The VAT rules have massively simplified trading between member states. The EU is prepared to fund research and development on a significant scale.

As yet, I have not seen any explanation of what happens to the migrants here if we leave the EU. Will we chuck them out? And what about the nearly 2 million UK "migrants" (whom we prefer to call ex-pats) living in the EU? If we expel the people we have here the EU would be entirely entitled to withdraw residence rights from them. 2.6% of the population of Malta is British - 0.8% of Spain - 3.7% of Cyprus - 0.08% of Greece. If even half of them come back the streets will be clogged with Zimmer frames. Very many years ago I investigated buying a house in Greece. Before the EU it was extremely difficult - you had to have a local agent whom you had to trust explicitly, and many and terrible were the rip-offs. The only safe (?) way to do it was to marry a Greek, but as the women were generally locked-up at that time it was very hard to achieve!

I will decide which way to vote in the referendum when I see some coherent policies from the OUT group. If they continue to be strangely missing I will vote IN, because I know what we're getting, imperfect though it may be. What we need is hard facts and clear policies, not flag-waving emotion. This is not 1940, we are not at war with Europe, and there are no Spitfires over the White Cliffs of Dover.

I hope you will see this as a calm and reasoned response, even if you disagree. Love to all.

     

[Silverstar]

Wow.........I probably opened a can of worms when I mentioned Brexit.....! 

My opinion (for what its worth) is that I do agree with both Tony and Jimbo to varying degrees.

I think that Tony living in the South (as I do), he has seen a massive change in our basic infrastructures over the past 5-10 years and I think that the south east seems to have a larger migrant population than the rest of the UK simply because of easy access to Dover, Channel Tunnel and the 5 'London' airports.

To be clear, I have absolutely no issue with controlled migration of people who wish to come to the UK to work and contribute to society and also respect our values/customs even if they differ from their own.   

My issue is with the migrants who have come here with their hands out expected a free ride and have quickly worked out how to flout the system to their advantage (usually by having children...).

I blame Blair as he completely shafted us on this particular issue and whilst I totally agree with Jimbo that the majority of the migrants add value to the UK, I also agree with Tony that in my area (Kent) we have seen crime rocket over the past 10 years and the vast majority is nearly always looking for an 'East European suspect'.

The local schools, hospitals, housing are all collapsing under the strain of trying to cope with the population mushrooming at a far greater rate than it can cope with and this needs addressing.

I have no idea whether economically the UK will be better off in or out of Europe as the details seem to be sketchy at best.  I work for a large accountancy (one of the Big 4) and my colleagues seem to think that coming out is a massive mistake but if people aren't given a laymans view of the pro's and con's to each option, then they will vote based on what they do know.

As Tony says, papers such as the Sun and DM have a massive following and the average person will vote according to what affects them on a daily basis in and around where they live and not on the perceived economic benefits of in or out.

It will be interested to see what happens. 

[Jimbo]

For the Police Federation view of why crime has increased see:

http://www.wypf.polfed.org/2016/02/12/cuts-are-putting-public-safety-in-jeopardy-warns-chairman/

[tonyco1]

The Political response as usual from the Police - they are only interesting in funding just as most Politicians of all parties seem to be interested in funding their own nests
As I said - when it affects me and I see it daily - I respond accordingly.
So you vote in Jim and I'll vote out - just to balance things nicely of course.
Now it's up to the rest of the country to decide.
I suspect that if we vote out that an agreement will soon be made.
If we were allowed to control our own borders we wouldn't be voting - but when the population of a big city arrives in a year - we struggle to cope.
Now I know you have a problem with any right leaning newspaper Jim, but the Mirror, Guardian, the not-so-Independent etc.,etc.
all spin and twist or invent stories - that's the press !!! - - it's what they all do - - even the whiter than white lefty lot, so lets be balanced on this.
We all know it - and so do you my friend - as for the Morning Star - fiction and fantasy more often than not.
Never mind - hopefully we'll see you for a catch-up over a glass of wine or beer one of these fine days in Corfu.

[Rover]

Well Tonyco1, if I base my decision on "as I find".
I can call my surgery early in the morning and get an appointment on the same day.
I can also book on line, useful for non urgent consultations.
On a recent visit to A&E, we were admitted,injury assessed, X Ray taken, plaster applied all within 90 minutes. We left the hospital with a follow up appointment for the following week. The visit was on a Saturday morning.
My grandchildren all attend highly rated schools within walking distance of their home.
Having had to call the police last year, they responded within 45 minutes, were helpful, and provided follow up services.
I will not go on, because I will not be basing my decision on "what I see". I will base it on the economic future. It is the only way to decide.

[Jimbo]

Office For National Statistics, summary July 2015:

Latest figures from the Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) showed that, for the offences it covers, there were an estimated 6.8 million incidents of crime against households and resident adults (aged 16 and over). This is a 7% decrease compared with the previous year’s survey, and the lowest estimate since the CSEW began in 1981

Crime in Hounslow is slightly down over the last year. Hull's crime rate is above average - but Hull has a very small immigrant population, so it's impossible to point the finger at immigrants when looking for causes. London has the highest crime rate per capita, as one might expect.

It's not about Right or Left - as the newspaper with the largest circulation in the UK, the Mail has a duty to be as accurate and objective as possible and not just make it up as it goes along.

[Jimbo]

Saturdays's Telegraph Magazine has a long and surprisingly sympathetic article about Yanis Varoufakis.

[Intentioncraft]

Absolutely spot on Tony,your observations reflect the situation I find here in my native North East,I will defer posting my tuppence worth as you have nailed it so eloquently,when you stand for election representing the culturally challenged party,you've got my vote.

[tonyco1]

Office For National Statistics, summary July 2015:

Crime in Hounslow is slightly down over the last year. Hull's crime rate is above average - but Hull has a very small immigrant population, so it's impossible to point the finger at immigrants when looking for causes. London has the highest crime rate per capita, as one might expect.

It's not about Right or Left - as the newspaper with the largest circulation in the UK, the Mail has a duty to be as accurate and objective as possible and not just make it up as it goes along.

The Mirror, Morning Star, London Evening News, Guardian, (Not so) Independent, and a few other rags, also have a duty to report & to be as accurate and objective as possible and not just make it up as it goes along - - also - but they don't either.
It's not just your pet hate, i.e. the Mail - so lets be balanced on this.

Luckily for me Jim - I don't live in the Borough of Hounslow, which is now an awful place to live or shop these days, with a million pound shops and cheap meat / veg shops rule.
A once sought after town to live in now looks like an over-crowded ghetto.
Most crime there doesn't get reported, mainly because if it's damage or theft, the insurance companies cane you on renewal.
God knows where the stat's come from but my local paper reports machete fights, stabbings, severe assaults, drug dealing, no-go areas, as well as theft and damage.

I live in Hillingdon, where anti-social behaviour is at a high compared to 10 years ago. Don't quote figures at me because I see it daily, in the real world.

This doesn't show in stat's because they certainly don't reflect or report in the real world.
In fact you can chuck figures at me until you are blue in the face - but I do live here and I do live in the real world - this is what I see and not what a report says.

Reports are usually spun and show figures that suit politically, I am sure you are aware of this after Blair's rule.
Any good accountant or good PR person, a king of spin, like a Barrister, can turn the truth around by wordplay, and convince you,
e.g. that you didn't really have your leg blown off - you just think you did -  case closed !!

I also work in London, and on a daily basis, have to deal with pickpockets, muggings, assaults, unsociable drunken behaviour, as well as the odd murder.
The bulk of which on our patch come from Romania - this will be in your beloved figures. In Hayes we had many instances of Somalian gangs and associated crime,
waiting outside stations in the dark and mugging people. Try Living here now, not looking at reports and saying from aloft, "oh well that can't be - because it say's crime's gone down".
No it hasn't  - they just don't catch them any-more !! - - If they do catch someone - they also lump in as many crimes as possible and ask for them to be taken into consideration, as if they were solved.
Jim I am friends with many ex-police and serving police who tell the truth in private - these things we discuss a lot.
 

[Jimbo]

When, exactly, did Somalia join the EU?

I share and sympathise with those suffering from urban blight in inner-city, particularly London, areas. Where I live most crime is committed by unemployed and unemployable white people. Oh - I guess they're largely descendants of the massive wave of Viking immigration. Leaving the EU will have zero effect on immigration from outside the EU, so that's a pathetic argument for leaving.

Protest as you may, Tony, the Mail (Nazi-supporting newspaper, historical fact) has an appalling record compared to other papers for flagrant inaccuracy.

I have only cited government sources - not any newspapers - and if that's not good enough for you, nothing is. I have made few emotional or rhetorical statements in this discussion. But I will say that it may come as a surprise to Londoners to find that there is a fairly large slice of the UK that is not London. Here in Yorkshire we're used to being robbed by the south. The economic future of this country should not be based on the experience of those who live in focal points of urban problems and ghetto's.

UKIP - the beloved party of the Leave campaign - has eleven members of the European Parliament (check it, if you don't believe me) with the worst attendance and voting record of any group in the entire EU. Have they all been a bit poorly? No. Have they derogated their electoral promise to represent the UK in the EU parliament? Obviously. Have they fraternised with and absorbed neo-Fascist elements? Yes. Do they have any coherent plant for a post-Brexit UK? No.

Incidentally, I did not say I would vote IN. I said I was awaiting any facts to support the case for exit, and so far I haven't seen any. What I have seen is a load of belligerent shouting from those who seem not to want to hear an opposing case. As Rover said earlier, this is national, not a local issue. Many local crime issues can be reduced by enhancing policing, but the Conservatives (traditionally the party most in favour of putting more funds into policing) have made major cuts. It can be done, it has been done elsewhere in the country, despite the savage cuts on general funding in favour of the leafy suburbs. London has many problems, but surely they must be solved within London - applying that to the rest of country is ridiculous.

[tonyco1]

Jim, Lets not get too fired up, it's just a discussion.
In saying that, while I respect your opinion, please respect mine - it's equally valid - I just see things from a different perspective.
You answered as I expected, but I'm not at all interested in your views of any newspaper, but please don't insult their readership,
which are many ordinary people who can read between the lines of a paper.

Whether they supported the Nazi or not, it's certainly not my outlook, and the war ended in 1945, I think they have changed since then.
Are you saying they support the Nazi Party today in 2016? Because I don't believe that for a minute.
The Morning star and all the other trot leaning rags would by the same definition support Communist Russia and Stalin - just as bad, and just as silly to associate.
Can we now leave news papers alone as it's a sideshow.....

I'm afraid I live in the real world and am not afraid to say things as they are - - - sometimes without the ridiculous political correctness that we bear on our shoulders.
I respect all other nationalities and religions, unless they cause me a problem. To get my respect they should be willing to work (when allowed), and not come for a free ride on benefits.
If they show respect in general, I return that respect and have made many diverse friends over the years, however when people are welcomed into a country, to escape a war or similar,
and then they go around in gangs of young men, molesting women, it's not funny and they need to be deported back immediately as they are criminals.

The Somalians are not from the EU, nor are the Syrians we all know that, I never said they were. However I mentioned that as they became a local problem as an example.
However my point was that factions of them, gangs of young men who don't really want to work or integrate go around and disrespect the land that welcomed them in, this also applies to anyone from the EU who simply wishes to free-load - and my friend - - - there are loads of them. Come here to work and contribute - then that's fine with me.

The main reason that people want to Brexit is because we can't control our borders.
Why do I say that ?  - - - because I have 130 staff, plus another 400+ that I speak to at various times over the months at work, they mainly (overwhelmingly), feel the same way I do.
It's a major issue here and it's here where we live.
They are a good straw poll of working and middle England people, who see the bad side of being ruled by the unelected EU, the streets, the way of life changing for the worse.
Talk to the people in the street, leave the Ivory towers of academics and Student life and the world of fiction - ask real people for their opinion - you'll get a shock.

When I see what happens where I live I want to try and change things.
I know it's a national issue, but people living in the North can make their own decision and vote accordingly, I think what is happening around me is a big issue and I will vote accordingly.
No one in the South robs the North, that's an emotive statement and you are basically making accusations that are simply not true - but hey you are allowed an opinion.
Trouble is Jim that you are now the one doing a load of belligerent shouting and it seems that you do not to want to hear an opposing case either.

I think I'll leave it at that - I've made my point as you already have above, so I'll probably not bother to respond again as it's all getting too heavy and it's just politics.
So a quote from your mate Cameron, "Calm down dear" - - - LOL 

[tonyco1]

Absolutely spot on Tony,your observations reflect the situation I find here in my native North East,I will defer posting my tuppence worth as you have nailed it so eloquently,when you stand for election representing the culturally challenged party,you've got my vote.

HaHaHa - nice one - - - especially the bit "when you stand for election representing the culturally challenged party" that made me chuckle....  .

[tonyco1]

Well Tonyco1, if I base my decision on "as I find".
I can call my surgery early in the morning and get an appointment on the same day.
I can also book on line, useful for non urgent consultations.
On a recent visit to A&E, we were admitted,injury assessed, X Ray taken, plaster applied all within 90 minutes. We left the hospital with a follow up appointment for the following week. The visit was on a Saturday morning.
My grandchildren all attend highly rated schools within walking distance of their home.
Having had to call the police last year, they responded within 45 minutes, were helpful, and provided follow up services.
I will not go on, because I will not be basing my decision on "what I see". I will base it on the economic future. It is the only way to decide.

Sounds like utopia - I wish I could ... Good Luck to you !!